Monday, 29 dec 2009.
Background – Israel just pounded Gaza with missiles and air strikes killing at least 300 people ( over a 1000 as of jan 20th 2009) injuring more than 2000, mostly civilians. The densely populated area of Gaza with a population of around 1.1 million people was ravaged by this state sponsored terrorism by Israel which it claims was because of the alleged breaking of a peace treaty by Hamas.
Whether Hamas broke the treaty or not is controversial. But even if it did brake the treaty, was Israel justified in killing hundreds of civilians and injuring thousands and destroying property worth millions? Lets find out
This is what pope Benedict said: –
POPE BENEDICT
“The native land of Jesus cannot continue to be witness to so much bloodshed, repeating itself without end. I implore an end to that violence, which must be condemned in every manifestation and for a renewal of the truce in the Gaza Strip.”
The following is a conversation that i had with a christian. These are her responses to Israeli killings: –
Before you plunge into the conversation, take a quick look at the pictures Shahrzad posted on her blog recently …
Just keep these things in mind while u read the conversation: –
1. Breaking of the peace treaty by Hamas is controversial. We only have Israels words and nothing else.
2. Israel bombarded civilians killing over 1000 and injuring over 2000 people. This is just the beginning. The figure may go up in the coming days.
3. Even if Hamas did break the treaty was the proportion of the violence by Israel justified?
4. What did the Palestinian civilians who were killed by Israel do to earn such a fate?
5. Lastly, The bible goes for “eye for an eye” concept right? well going by this, was it right from Israel’s part to kill 1000 people and injure 2000 more while the Israeli casualty is not even close to 20?
So lets see what the christian thinks. I havent edited anything. Its all uncensored. Even silly spelling mistakes are lesft untouched, though they are corrected separately in brackets and green font. Green font is used for narration purpose in between.: –
mansoormuhammed12 (7:13:13 PM): hello sis. long time no see. belated merry christmas. hope u are doing fine
mansoormuhammed12 (9:39:28 PM): [This is a mass instant message] The terrorist oppression forces in the occupied territories have again unleashed genocide upon the innocent men, women, childrens and infants of Palestine since yesterday. Today the number of people killed in this wholesale slaughter has exceeded 300, while over a 1000 people have been severely injured. The zionist oppressors have increased their terrorist activities giving a whole new definition to the word holocaust. It is incumbent upon all people of this world who have any sense of justice to condemn this bloody massacre in their hearts, minds and words. And it is incumbent upon all the sincere people of the world to take action to force these zionist terrorists in halting their bloodshed of innocent people.
http://inminds.com/boycott-israel.php
[the above was a mass message that i received from a good friend of mine and which i sent to all people on my messenger list. oleery1 happened to be one of them]
oleery1 (12:38:02 AM): maybe the answer is not to fire missiles at Israel, or maybe don’t start what you can’t finish,? gee, that would be a novel idea 😕
mansoormuhammed12 (12:39:33 AM): so its ok if israeli tanks ravage palestinian homes while its not for a palestinian kid to throw stnes at them for taking away his parents life is it sis?
mansoormuhammed12 (12:39:45 AM): *stones
mansoormuhammed12 (12:39:56 AM): *life
oleery1 (12:40:08 AM): missiles, missiles, :-??
oleery1 (12:40:45 AM): missiles are not stones and shoes 😐
mansoormuhammed12 (12:41:05 AM): so if israel destroys palestinian women and children if hamas fired missiles?
mansoormuhammed12 (12:41:15 AM): thats ok is it?
mansoormuhammed12 (12:41:53 AM): i am ashamed that u are even justifying this act
oleery1 (12:42:01 AM): self defense, right, if someone fires missiles, is it not expected, to defend oneself, and nation ?
mansoormuhammed12 (12:42:11 AM): killing women and childern?
mansoormuhammed12 (12:42:17 AM): thats self d3efence?
mansoormuhammed12 (12:42:32 AM): cant u even see the disproportionate use of force here?
oleery1 (12:42:38 AM): killing anyone is a sin and murder, against the 10 commandments,
mansoormuhammed12 (12:42:54 AM): so u must condemn israel too
mansoormuhammed12 (12:43:00 AM): and not just hamas
mansoormuhammed12 (12:43:05 AM): thats only being fare (fair)
mansoormuhammed12 (12:43:13 AM): do u condem israel?
mansoormuhammed12 (12:43:16 AM): do u?
mansoormuhammed12 (12:43:20 AM): yes or no?
oleery1 (12:43:37 AM): who broke the peace treaty and fired the first missiles, breaking this treaty ???:-?
[Dear bloggers, we only have Israel’s words and nothing more on this. ]
mansoormuhammed12 (12:43:50 AM): so its ok to kill women and chidren?
mansoormuhammed12 (12:43:56 AM): it may or may not be hamas
mansoormuhammed12 (12:44:04 AM): but is it ok to kill ci=vilians?
mansoormuhammed12 (12:44:24 AM): its ok to kill civilians is it. since when?
mansoormuhammed12 (12:44:36 AM): i regret what hamas did greatfully (gracefully)
oleery1 (12:44:42 AM): are hamas extremists ?
mansoormuhammed12 (12:44:43 AM): but israel?
mansoormuhammed12 (12:44:50 AM): i dont know and i dont care
mansoormuhammed12 (12:45:23 AM): its such a shame that even now u try to justify isreal where a simple statement of regret would suffice
mansoormuhammed12 (12:45:36 AM): this is the hight of madness
mansoormuhammed12 (12:45:46 AM): which the world hsas bred
mansoormuhammed12 (12:45:51 AM): and we talk of love and peace
mansoormuhammed12 (12:45:57 AM): we all are hypocrites
oleery1 (12:47:25 AM): but you can’t be the aggressor, and then cry when you get your ass kicked, hamas knows what weapons israel possess, why fire those first missiles, should israel, just say, oh that’s ok, give me a break
mansoormuhammed12 (12:47:44 AM): so its ok to kill women and children is it?
oleery1 (12:48:01 AM): i didn’t say that,
oleery1 (12:48:47 AM): for every action there is a reaction, israel reacted towards agression against them
mansoormuhammed12 (12:49:01 AM): but u do have no regret for their deaths. its so painfully clear. if u are hear (here) to share the pain then i welcome you. but if u are not then go enjoy ur christmas instead of putting salt on our wounds
mansoormuhammed12 (12:49:21 AM): is the reaction eqaul in proportion to the action?
mansoormuhammed12 (12:49:28 AM): cant u people even see that?
mansoormuhammed12 (12:49:33 AM): hamas may be mad
mansoormuhammed12 (12:49:40 AM): but why punish innocents?
mansoormuhammed12 (12:49:58 AM): you are all so cruel in ur judgements!!!!!!!!!!1
mansoormuhammed12 (12:50:10 AM): may God be so fare (fair) with u all to (too).
mansoormuhammed12 (12:50:16 AM): *fair
oleery1 (12:50:29 AM): hamas doesn’t regard who are innocent when they fire missiles,
mansoormuhammed12 (12:51:03 AM): les talk about israel. hamas did not kill those people
mansoormuhammed12 (12:51:24 AM): is the act of israel right?
mansoormuhammed12 (12:51:27 AM): is it?
mansoormuhammed12 (12:51:41 AM): with all ur christian consiousness ans3wer this
mansoormuhammed12 (12:51:49 AM): was isreal right?
oleery1 (12:52:10 AM): the middle eastern countries won’t even back the palistinians, only lip service, actions speak louder than words, our mouths can say anything
mansoormuhammed12 (12:52:26 AM): thats because the west has crippled them.
mansoormuhammed12 (12:52:40 AM): u are going everywhere in this talk except isreal
mansoormuhammed12 (12:52:45 AM): lets stick to isreal
mansoormuhammed12 (12:52:52 AM): was israel right?
oleery1 (12:53:38 AM): israelis have been part of the middle east for thousands of years, they fought for israel, they won israel, and it is the strongest nation in the mid east,
mansoormuhammed12 (12:53:53 AM): so its ok what they did recently?
mansoormuhammed12 (12:53:58 AM): ohh oh i forgot
mansoormuhammed12 (12:54:14 AM): sorry. so if someone is strong they can do whatever they want is it?
mansoormuhammed12 (12:54:19 AM): sound pretty good
mansoormuhammed12 (12:54:22 AM): and noble
oleery1 (12:54:59 AM): mohamed your prophet wared and won territory, why can’t the jews do this
[At this point i would like draw your attentions to something very fascinating. The true face of terrorism. I dare and openly challenge any christian out there to refute this article
The Terror In The Bible ]
mansoormuhammed12 (12:56:04 AM): ohh ohnh i see… this comes down to religion now. i totally forgot that its totally ok to slaughter innocent women and children in the bible. i have got a hundred verses which i wud love to hare (share) with u
mansoormuhammed12 (12:56:07 AM): regarding this
mansoormuhammed12 (12:56:11 AM): right now
oleery1 (12:56:28 AM): throughout history, this happens throughout the world, wars, for land, and religion and politics,
mansoormuhammed12 (12:57:12 AM): we wre dumb back then. we didnt have the UN to guide us. we wrerall fools. so this is how u justify the act of israel?
oleery1 (12:57:18 AM): well your talking old testament, before Our Lord Jesus Christ was sacrifficed
[how hypocritic! so old testament can have any crap verse that can pt even satan to shame in its evilness and get away with it? Wasnt the God of old testament the same as their “Lord and God” Jesus (with all respects to him)?
mansoormuhammed12 (12:57:43 AM): i ll share verses of new testament too after we finish with the old
mansoormuhammed12 (12:58:01 AM): Gods book is Gods bok (book) after all whether it is new or old testamnet
mansoormuhammed12 (12:58:03 AM): doesnt matter
oleery1 (12:58:19 AM): Jesus brought a new and everlasting covenant between God and mankind ,
mansoormuhammed12 (12:58:31 AM): ok. we are going off topic
mansoormuhammed12 (12:58:37 AM): lets stick to israel
mansoormuhammed12 (12:58:43 AM): was israel right?
mansoormuhammed12 (12:58:53 AM): what wud jesus(peace) say?
mansoormuhammed12 (12:58:57 AM): about israel
mansoormuhammed12 (12:59:12 AM): Isreals act*
oleery1 (12:59:30 AM): oh yes, old testament is the jewish books, the new testament is Jesus Christ’s life and teachings , death and resurrection ,,only christians have new and old testament in the bible
[ again!, This is how the christian tries to get away when cornered! by denouncing a major lions share of their own Bible!)
mansoormuhammed12 (12:59:44 AM): off topic again
mansoormuhammed12 (12:59:50 AM): lets stick to israel
mansoormuhammed12 (1:00:17 AM): was isarel right? look how diificult it is for u westerners to gracefully accept ur mistakes
oleery1 (1:01:56 AM): you know when Russia and China, and the middle east join forces and attack Israel, Jesus Christ will be here, its been prophecised about, Jesus will come and stop this, and His Kingdom will be Israel ,………its all in the bible, its going to happen in our lifetime, the time is drawing near
mansoormuhammed12 (1:02:57 AM): ohh heck! i too believe in his second coming. but was isaeal right? with all ur christianness answer this
oleery1 (1:03:06 AM): Jesus is coming !!!! Halelujah !!!!!!!!!!
mansoormuhammed12 (1:03:19 AM): thats true. its nothing new there
mansoormuhammed12 (1:03:22 AM): we all know that
mansoormuhammed12 (1:03:28 AM): but was isreal right?
oleery1 (1:04:22 AM): anyone who hurts an innocent little one, would just as soon tie a mill stone around his neck and cast himself into the ocean, were what Jesus ‘s words are
oleery1 (1:05:02 AM): every human being will pay for their sins ,………….
mansoormuhammed12 (1:05:58 AM): i know his words better than u know sis. how many times have u read the bible? 10? 15?20? i have read it more times than u can even imagine. tell me ur opinion. i want to tknow how far ur hatred to muslims goes though i have none to you. was israel right?
oleery1 (1:06:40 AM): Israel acted upon aggression agains it
mansoormuhammed12 (1:06:58 AM): thanks. atleast u came up with this.
oleery1 (1:07:18 AM): Israel didn’t break the peace treaty, ……….a man is only as good as his word
mansoormuhammed12 (1:07:20 AM): but not good enough
mansoormuhammed12 (1:07:50 AM): so its ok to kill innocent civilians with such remarkable accuracy?
mansoormuhammed12 (1:08:09 AM): which hamas fool was hidden in the open football field?
oleery1 (1:08:17 AM): are you saying that hamas has killed no innocents,?
mansoormuhammed12 (1:08:34 AM): i alreday (alresdy) said gracefully that i regret wht hamas did
mansoormuhammed12 (1:09:04 AM): but you, with all ur church taught fake message of peace and love refuse to point finger at israel?
mansoormuhammed12 (1:09:12 AM): not good at all
mansoormuhammed12 (1:09:27 AM): doesnt go well with the image of church in my heart
oleery1 (1:09:34 AM): and now you name call 😐
mansoormuhammed12 (1:10:36 AM): when you have no regret in pouring salt on my wounds the least that i can do is this, when u dont have even one bit of regret for what happened then i am not name calling, i am telling truth
oleery1 (1:11:36 AM): it may be your truth, but just because you believe its true, doesn’t neccessarily make it true, no matter how hard and how much you believe it :-??
mansoormuhammed12 (1:12:12 AM): u are trying to take me everywhere in ur talk except israel.
mansoormuhammed12 (1:12:24 AM): thats not starge (strange) at all
mansoormuhammed12 (1:12:31 AM): was israel right?
[read my Conversation with a christian missionary and see how similar the misionarie’s behaviour was. He took almost a whole week to answer my question “is Jesus God”. I screamed “o hell! just tell yes or no and we can go on with the discussion.” But no! he had to take a whole week of coaxing.]
oleery1 (1:12:43 AM): i think my stance on israel, is pretty self evident :-??
mansoormuhammed12 (1:13:36 AM): i wanted a simple yes or no answer. if u cant give that for a thing thats so plain as the deaths of hundreds of people then there something seriously wrong with your judgment
oleery1 (1:14:16 AM): they fought for the land, they won it, they made it a thriving nation, and you don’t like it, even though its how your prophet conqured,
[These christians who are taught to hate the prophet mohammad (peace) more than they hate even osama bin laden are so sure about the islamic terrorism that they forget that the true face of terrorism is their own Bible! I once again dare any christian to refute this article
The Terror In The Bible]
mansoormuhammed12 (1:15:42 AM): ok sis. thanks for letting me know your wonderful and noble views. they are so inspiring and peaceful and noble and so christian. this is what i am going to do. i am going to post this conversation of ours without any editing in my blog. let all people see how peaceful and caring the west is.
mansoormuhammed12 (1:16:19 AM): this is what i did with another christian frnd too. for all my courtesy he too turned out thsi way. ul can see our entie (entire) chat there
oleery1 (1:16:53 AM): this war against israel, is what will be the catalyst for Jesus coming and bring peace to the world, its all been prophecised, about and many prophecies are being fullfilled as we chat,
mansoormuhammed12 (1:17:45 AM): sure sure. thnks for letting me know
oleery1 (1:20:17 AM): ok 🙂
[That’s the end of this heartless conversation and these are the observations: –
1. All i wanted was a simple statement like “i condemn Israel’s actions” or “ its so sad what happened in Gaza” or “ i regret the deaths of so many people“. Is it so hard for one human to feel the loss of another human? Is it so difficult to mouth one statement of regret for the deaths of hundreds?
2. I have to fight for a statement of remorse from a person who is so bothered and worried about the fulfillment of some prophesy while hundreds die in Gaza. And what is the end of this crazy prophesy? Some “God” is coming to save the oppressor – Israel? Has even this “God” gone mad like the rest of us?
3. Do you Christians hate the Muslims so much that even the deaths of hundreds of us doesn’t warrant a simple feeling of remorse? And you call yourselves as the ambassadors of peace? This is a gross mockery of peace! I wonder what Jesus would have to say to this. Maybe he will applaud and give Israel and oleery1 a pat on the back.
4. If the coming of this “God” whom oleery1 talked about so eagerly comes really to “save” and “defend” the present day Israel then i am happy and proud to denounce that God. He is no God . He is a monster who cannot differentiate between the oppressor and the tyrant.]
Click Here to see some pictorial descriptions of the “noble” and “Humane” deeds of Israel : –
Christ And Muhammad 
this oleery1 thing should be put in the forefront of battles in Iraq and Afghanistan. Maybe she’ll get more pleasure fulfilling “God’s prophesy” by strangulating innocent women and children with her own hands! and mansoor stop calling her sis. She doesn’t deserve the courtesy.
If people like her are called as religious then i am glad that i am not among them. ollery or whatever, you need to do some real soul searching. Israel was wrong. I have been following Israel and palestine in the news for quite some time and its nothing new that the world goes ga ga crazy when it comes to Israel. They simply seem to shut out all reason and logic (not to forget compassion and mercy) when it comes to Israel’ s aggression. But what do i do? the hatred of so many people like this one doesnt allow me to love them either. This is a vicious circle of hate from which i see no escape.
Assalaam. Is this female gone crazy?
Mr. mansoormuhammed12, be at peace brother for I with the rest of my people regret the death of innocent people and condemn the act of Israel. May Allah be as merciful to Israel and its children as Israel was to palestine.
And may he be as fair and just in his judgement on oleery1 as she was in her’s.
(***** moderated). I love the christians. But i hate people like oleery1. I have a solution to this world. It has to get rid of all such stone hearted people like these pronto. And……….
Hey did this female just say about some prophesy? when mr. mansoormuhammed12 said he had verses of Bible (in hundreds) that have slaughter of men and women she was quick in denouncing by saying it was “old testament etc etc” but when it comes to fullfilling their artificial prophesies they want the same old testament that she was so quick in denouncing just moments ago! Folks, Look out for the meaning of the word “hypocrite” in some dictionary. And if you want a live example then look at oleeery.
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This is mansoor – the author of this article.
ghtjtjf, wellwisher, a muslim and mohammad, thank you all for your thoughtful opinions. I am sure sister oleery isn’t stone hearted. Maybe she’ll find it in her heart one day that the value of a human life is more worth than mindless religious bickering.
But what i fear is whether she was really happy at the deaths of these people as they weren’t Christians like her?
My Dear fellow human beings, This much hate is not good. Follow whatever religion or faith you want to. But when you see a fellow human being in distress, the least you can do is offer your polite condolences. Is this simple act of friendship a sin? If it is, then shame on the faith that you follow!
[moderator- Do you hear this oleery1? This was the noble peace treaty that was signed between Israel and Palestine!
1- peace treaty ]
imagine this
your are a man your twan is sealed and surrounded by military forces no food no electricity no medical supplies allowed to enter.
– your wife is pregnant but you cant send her to a hospital cause its useless as there are no medical supplies available and during the peace treaty supplies are not allowed to enter.
– your son is hungry but you cant go and buy him some food cause its peace treaty no food allowed to enter.
– its winter your wife and son feeling cold but you can do nothing.
– electricity is down and no gas supply. Why ? Are you fool !? It’s peace treaty, that’s why.
– oh and just to keep the peace treaty existing, Israel helicopters bomb us from time to time to prevent us from being getting bored from hunger and cold and pain. They are entertaining us with some bombings! so everyone chill!
where were you oleery1 while this terrible crime happens?
– you were probably working and then go home get some sleep then call your friends saying whassup up dudes? what are we going to do today? lets gather up any play play station, no no no lets go to a movie!
– so does any one think about what happened in Gaza? does any one even tried to help them during 2 months of hunger and pain ?
– now we come to Hamas,
all their people are surrounded. Some of them died in hospitals. No one want to help them. But wait, it gets better. Israel doesn’t want to let any supplies to enter!
So what happens? – people die in hospital , every body is hungry , its dark cause there is no electricity , and its cold. Isn’t this so so wonderful life to live!?
After all what i said, all this may push someone to take action but not like ( oleery1 ) said that Israel was just reacting killing people, starving them is an action. It is not correct to kill people wherever they are from Palestine or Israel.
-and as for our prophet mohamed,
he never fought for land, he always fought people who prevented him from delivering his message cause its against our believes to fight some one and take his
land simply because we are stronger. And when our prophet did fight someone in the process of delivering our message to the world (or to defend) he never killed a child or a women or a man without arms. He also strictly prohibited his followers from doing such things too.
[Moderator – At this point i openly challenge the christians to produce a single verse from the quran which says to kill women and children. Be advised, I can give over a hundred verses from the bible which rant specifically about killing women and children.]
but when i see oleery1 say that its ok to take some body’s land because you are stronger, i dont find it strange all the west live on this idea. Americans eliminate the original citizens of America ( the native Indians ) .
Spain , Portugal made terrible elimination to the people of south America and and destroyed the Inca civilization.
and in 21 century England France Holland Germany Spain occupied Africa ,India , china and Pakistan to take there resources just because they were stronger. Hell of justice for christian way of thinking!
[Moderator – Dont forget that the present day Australians kicked the native aborigines. Some don’t even have the voting rights even today. And then we have present day south Africans plagued the native blacks like viruses reducing them to more than just evolutionary specimens.]
we all need to judge on what whats happening with some true justice
brother mohamed, I understand your concerns. This treaty is a shame on the name of peace. Every time someone tries to bring peace to the land, US veto stops it. The US rants about democracy etc etc but when the people of Palestine elects Hamas democratically, those idiots at white house say no no this is not counted.
This is the level of hypocrisy that has plagued mankind. I personally dont see any solution here. People like oleery1 wont allow us to extend the hand of friendship even if we want to.
When people go crazy enough to say its ok to kill someone if they are able to do it, then i think, the only hope for me is to wait for the Day of Judgment!. In this world, with the kind of people living here, i don’t think we will be able to make much difference.
The shouts of madness has become more audible than the cry of oppression.
Actually I don’t need to read this crap from someone with a heart filled with hatred and with no mercy, by the way this is not called a heart.
oleery1 (12:43:37 AM): who broke the peace treaty and fired the first missiles, breaking this treaty ???:-?
Plz plz don’t make me laugh, what do u mean by peace treaty? Oh I see it’s when ur ppl are sieged for more than one year and there is no way out and there is no source of power like electricity and gas and when the food supplies are running short and when ppl are dying under the surgeries and in the ICU coz there is no medicines or the required medical equipments and then u tell them u will make a peace treaty with them !!!! how convenient is this????
oleery1 (12:42:01 AM): self defense, right, if someone fires missiles, is it not expected, to defend oneself, and nation ?
only Israel has the right in what u call self defense??? And the Palestinians don’t have this right!!! do u ppl even consider them humans from flesh and blood???!!!! Do u call bombing the schools, universities and civilian houses self defense???? I think u have some twisted standards.
oleery1 (12:53:38 AM): israelis have been part of the middle east for thousands of years, they fought for israel, they won israel, and it is the strongest nation in the mid east.
For ur information They haven’t been a part in the middle east for thousands of years they lived their lives as parasites in Europe until others give them the power to take the Muslims land-Palestine- so it’s our right to take our land back.
oleery1 (12:52:10 AM): the middle eastern countries won’t even back the palistinians, only lip service, actions speak louder than words, our mouths can say anything.
We r not our governments coz what they do is shameful, actually they are like u ppl who doesn’t deserve to live while true men are being killed.
I want to assure u that the victory will be ours and the prophecy will be fulfilled we will crush every Jew and kick them out from our land ,it’s not a matter of how much we have weapons in our hands but how much faith we have in our hearts and this is what matters, like the war in Lebanon who had the strongest power back then and who won??? We did, the Muslims……..
until now isreal still bombing Gaza for the third day on a row while saying we r doing this for the sake of peace between us!!!!!
Mansoor, I found your blog after reading a comment you left somewhere….maybe ATW’s site. Anyway…
This post was very interesting and heartbreaking for me. I am a follower of Jesus Christ and, sadly, I was probably much like your Christian friend in my thinking only about 15 months ago. It’s not that I wanted people to be killed; I simply felt much like Oleery1 in justifying everything Israel did. I’m sorry to admit that, but it’s true.
However, something wonderful happened to me in October 2007 when God brought a young Arab Muslim into my life and we became very dear friends. Samer taught me about the Arab side of things — things I had NEVER heard concerning Israel’s tactics. Boy, was it a rude awakening for an evangelical Christian such as myself!
But I firmly believe God wanted me to learn these things, and I have changed so much in the last several months. I praise the Lord for that.
I deeply regret the years I wasted with the attitude that I had to support Israel’s atrocious methods. And I apologize for the part my own government – and I – contribute to that carnage. My heart has been heavy and my thoughts and prayers have been with the Gazans.
I wish you would forgive the Christians like me who have been blind to these things for so long. Many still are, but I pray the Lord will change them so they will seek to treat all people with love and compassion.
Click on my name if you want to read things Samer and I have written in our shared blog … maybe you can tell that I truly have changed. I want you to realize that Jesus does make a GOOD difference in people’s lives. Sadly, many who call themselves Christians don’t obey what He instructed us to do. If we consider Hamas our enemy, that’s a good thing! Jesus said, “LOVE your enemies!”
I hope you find it in your heart to forgive us.
Thank you.
Susanne
P.S. I wrote this recently challenging my fellow Christians.
http://americanarab.wordpress.com/2008/12/12/hey-christian-remember-this/
This is mansoor.
Sister Susanne, you are a true christian. I am humbled by your truthfulness and your judgment. If only everyone of us on earth has the conciliatory heart like yours, would there be peace on Earth. What’s happening right now is everyone hates everyone else except themselves. There is no escape from this hate wave unless we have people like you susanne, who are bold enough to be different from the rest of the crowd.
Please do not think that i hate the Christians or something. Sometimes i do get inclined to hate when people cross the realms of justice. That’s all to it and nothing more.
I for one, have many many wonderful christian friends who are a source of inspiration to me. Like my own headmaster – who is a christian Father.
I hold no grudge whatsoever against any christian including sister oleery1. Above all, I love Jesus as much as i love Muhammad or any of the other prophets (peace on all of them). This love is greater than the love that i have for myself or any other human being.
I sincerely hope that you are not offended in anyway by my conversation with oleery1.
SPECIALLY FOR MY SISTER SUSSANE.
my dear sister Sussane thank u for such honorable feelings u have and 4 ur great insight which i hope will inspire other Christians.
but plz ppl stop saying that Hamas is our enemy or they are terrorist, no they aren’t they r the true heroes here, they r the only ppl defending Palatine.when ur country is occupied and ur ppl r being killed what would u do?u have to fight back and that’s what Hamas is doing,they were elected by ppl of Palestine to represent them but no, US and Israel and the traitors n the Palestinian government didn’t accept these just and honest elections so they put them on the shelf and considered these elections like they were not held, is this justice?????
Hamas is doing what it can do to help it’s ppl and they are the only hope for them and if they are terrorist u wont hear ppl of Palestine praying 4 them and supporting them.this is the truth my friend so plz open ur eyes wide and see it coz the whole world is trying to cover it.
thank u…..
ur sister
Moderator – Click Here to see some pictorial descriptions of the “noble” and “Humane” deeds of Israel : –
https://prophetrejectors.wordpress.com/category/israeli-killings-of-palestinian-civilians-pics/
Mansoor, thank you for your gracious words. Of course I am not offended by your conversation with Oleery1. I am very glad I was able to read it, and I appreciate you letting us respond to what was said. I really felt sad when I realized the arrogance on “my” side and how it pours salt on your wounds. You were not asking for much … just for someone to speak up for the hurting ones in Gaza. And she wouldn’t give that to you…
Pearlland, thank you for your kind words. YES, I realize more what Hamas means to the Palestinians and Arab/Muslim world now that I understand the history of the conflict and the injustices done. My sentence about Hamas last night was
If we consider Hamas our enemy, that’s a good thing! Jesus said, “LOVE your enemies!”
Please notice the “IF.” 🙂 And that was for the sake of those followers of Christ who think of Hamas as our enemy. If they are, treat them like an enemy — love them! We are also instructed in the Bible if our enemies are hungry, feed them and if they are thirsty, give them water to drink. Basically we are supposed to bless our enemies which is a far cry from what most of us do.
And please no one think the West is run by Christians. Ah, people truly believe America represents Jesus’ teachings? … UGH!!! No way. People say a lot of things . . . but Jesus did not act like us!
Thank you all for your kindness. God bless you.
Lets be frank ladies and gentlemen, lets get to the root of this problem, and the root is simple RELIGIOUS INTOLERANCE! The people of gaza give power to a group of religious radicals like Hamas whose blindness and ignorance goes so far as to deny another peoples right to exist. You can argue back and forth all you want on whose fault this is but the the source of all this death is not because of “israeli terrorists” but religious intolerance . Now lets be honest what nation would not do the same thing if an organized group was purposely setting off rockets onto your soil. I guarantee you more than one nation of the united nations would have a similar if not so different to that of Israels. Its due to the fact that groups like Hamas are determined to make this a religious war. Hamas brought this storm on the people of Gaza. Hamas uses the death of the innocent to justify religous intolerance. Also you know I do believe in science and logic. I’m not a hater i just choose reason over ignorance.
asdfe – here are few points you probably missed: –
1. Hamas was a democratically elected governing body.
2. Who are you to decide whether somebody is religiously intolerant or otherwise. I can very well swipe the same allegation of “religious intolerance” on Israel.
3. If Israel was so so tolerant “religiously” why did it take jerusalem by force and why is it not returning it to its rightful owners?
4. You rightfully said Hamas is “purposefully” seting off rockets on Israeli soil. But do you know this “purpose”? Perhaps you can read the 7th comment (from brother mohamed) to know this purpose which mostly deals with what kind of peace treaty was signed which in truth, is a shame on the face of peace. Any nation would rightfully shell rockets if such is the situation.
5. You said “Hamas uses the death of innocent to justify religious intolerance“. You are absolutely right here. You have atlast understood Hamas. Unlike Israel who used the lame excuse of capture of two israeli soldiers to wage war on an entire nation (Lebanon), Hamas uses a perfectly valid reason for its religious intolerance towards Israel, which is, – the slaughter of its innocent men, women and children by Israel.
6. You admit that you are a person of science and logic. But i must differ here. If you think that Hamas- the body who fights for the rights of bloody palestinian animals (oh sorry, i mean people) and to kick out the invaders who loot, rape, steal their lands and make thier people settle in place of the palestinians, if you think that this Hamas is a monster group, then your logic is flawed.
7. This is my logic – As long as the current US and Israeli policies exist in this world, there wont be any peace. As long as people like you asdfe exist there wont be any peace on earth. Forgive me for saying this. I assume that you are a mature person (18+). The fact that you have allowed yourselves to be swayed by the western media and swayed by the lies of Israel made me say this. The fact that you have not been able to differentiate between the opressor and the oppressed also contributed to my decision. As of today Israel killed 600 people and injured over 2000 in this current invasion. Which palestinian asshole or group of assholes killed so many Israeli’s? Hamas? Did you even know that around 2 million palestinians are displaced and living in refugee camps with no gas, electricity and proper health care? oh oh and we are not talking about any floods, typhoons or cyclones here. We are talking about Israel here. All this because of the merciful, civilized and “religiously tolerant” Israel’s doing.
8. does your flawed logic somehow tell you that all this could have been prevented if Hamas did not exist? are you serious? Hamas came to power only recently. Was the attitude of Israel different with Fateh? Did the rape, plunder and killings and land stealing and settling by Israel end when their was no hamas a few years back? I totally forgot that Israel had launched several assaination bids on yaser Arafat who was NOT from Hamas. Your logic might tempt you to say that neither Fateh nor Hamas are capable of bringing peace and that they both are “religiously intolerant monsters”. So what solution does your logic give? Perhaps it would say that these Arab sons of bitches are so dumb that they cannot rule themselves properly so let the wise and smart people of US and Israel rule them instead. isnt it? This is exactly the reason why i said that as long as people like you asdfe exist on earth, there wont be any peace.
I sincerely pray that you stop looking at the matter through israeli and US glasses. Try looking into it just as a simple innocent Human being and you might find things to be different.
theowork shop
1. yes Hamas was democratically elected you have pointed out the obvius. some Americans elected a moron like G. Bush. Germany gave power to Adolf hitler it does not make those people evil but perhaps a bit blind
2. these lets be honest this tension with israel and its neighbors is most definately religious intolerance. I look through this in the glasses of no nation. Who am i to call something what it truly is. You think that people like me are saber rattlers i assure you i am not I wish for diplomacy and piece in the middle east your baseless assumption could not be more far from the truth. Come now sir I will tell you the kind of people who won’t allow piece and it is the ilk who look through the glasses of religious intolerance. That is why there is very likely never going to be solved. Indeed on both sides. Land that men call ” holy” has brought about the death of more men then can be counted over centuries. The real killer bringer of death which is religious intolerance. People like me sir with all do respect i advocate no war nor death if it were up to me israel would be using diplomacy and i do not justify this invasion. Take no offence when i call your assumption about my person ignorant and blind. You make a baseless assumption about me. I believe that president Bush’s Foreign policy is like his administration illogical moronic and blind. I was simply stating a point are you really so biased that you consider any other opinion besides your own to be so. Lets get real You think me biased and from my previous post i suppose that could easily be assumed. But my main point is that as long as radical islam has any clout in the region and israel has a loose trigger finger. Then I regret to tell you but their is likely no solution. If hamas didn’t exist I can’t say what would have happened. You sir are quite hippocritical and from what i read you seem to justify war against israel. Over 500 have died in a war over religious intolerance I stand on neither side sir i personally believe religion is a creation of man and a source of ignorance that has justified ignorance, war, murder, even the denying of scientific facts and i refer not to one religion. As long as religion is a factor in this struggle their will be no real definite end . Jeruselem is no holy place man has just given it that veneer and many have died trying to control it you are polarizing in saying it belongs to just one people. both israel and palestine are guilty of religious intolerance and perhaps you should realize what the real cause of these endless struggles are.
Mr asdfe, I appreciate your views on the present US government and the present US policies which most likely would remain the same no matter who sits in white house.
I may have misjudged you as another brainwashed person of the crowd by the western media. If that is the case then my sincerest apologies to you.
I intended to make this blog a hangout for people who love peace no matter what faith they belong to. I welcome people like you who want peace to be established. Hang out hear as long as you want. Drop in your suggestions, views and possible solutions to whatever crisis wherever you feel like. Speaking of views, there are certain things that i would like to share with you. Nothing is to be taken personally unless specifically said so.
I do justify war on Israel if it ever occurred. Now who is waging war on Israel? Egypt? Syria? Lebanon? turkey? who? Nobody! Do you seriously believe that a bunch of thugs and goons with rockets that wont even guarantee an explosion are waging WAR on Israel? My friend, this is a war on Arabs by the US and Israel and not the other way round. I am sure you are aware of this.
You seem to think that religion is the root cause of all problems. As a man of religion I am ashamed to admit that this is true to a certain extent but not always. Let’s Analyze what’s happening in middle east. Palestinians – the Muslims had a peaceful country called Palestine for over 800 years which also included Jerusalem. Heck! Jerusalem was its capital.
-Let this be equation one
Now somewhere in 1948 Israel – the Jews, take away not only Jerusalem from Palestine but huge geographical chunks of land from the neighboring countries as well. Why Jerusalem? obviously coz its their holy land.
-Let this be Equation two.
From equations one and two, Palestine – the Muslims, fight to regain their lost lands. religion doesn’t play much from Palestinian point of view. They merely want their lost land back. So your perception of “radical islam” being the cause of this mess is totally wrong. But i do believe that as long as israel has the loose trigger, there wont be any peace.
Now, lets see where the US – the christians fit here. Why does the US veto EVERY attempt to get a proper peace treaty, Why does the US – christians support this Israel – the invader, Israel – the oppressor and Israel – the land stealer? The christians might want Jerusalem for themselves. Thats understandable. But supporting Israel – the jews, would not help the christians to get Jerusalem. So why the blind and unfair support to Israel?
Well here is where i have to differ from you. The US support to Israel and its aggression towards middle east is not something that was born out of “religion”. This is born out of the “survival of the fittest” theory which i am sure you believe at the cost of God.
Israel – palestine conflict is nothing compared to the miseries that this atheistic “survival of fittest” theory has brought upon mankind.
Let me list a few of them for you: –
1. the suppression of human rights of African blacks by the whites. Religion had nothing to do with it. Materialism and “survival of the fittest” was the culprit.
2. The madness of apartheid in south Africa. Religion had nothing to do with it. Materialism and “survival of the fittest” was the culprit.
3. the systematic cleansing of native Indians in America by the whites. Religion had nothing to do with it. Materialism and “survival of the fittest” was the culprit.
4. The systematic cleansing of native Aborigines in Australia. Some of the native tribes don’t even have voting rights. did you know that? Religion had nothing to do with it. Materialism and “survival of the fittest” was the culprit.
5. The mass colonization of Asian countries by the whites. Did you know that people in India were made to eat dung, mass stripped, their kingdoms usurped by silly spot made rules like “Doctrine of lapse” wherein if an Indian king doesn’t have a male heir then that kingdom would fall into the hands of the British? Religion had nothing to do with this. Materialism and “survival of the fittest” was the culprit.
6. the Indians weren’t even allowed to take salt from their own shores by the “evolutionary superior” whites (British) and one man called Mr. Gandhi had to issue the “Dandi march ” in its protest in his own country. Religion had nothing to do with this. Materialism and “survival of the fittest” was the culprit.
7. Do you want to hear the views of Charles Darwin himself concerning the “inferior negro and savage races of the world”? here it is
“At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world…..The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the negro or Australian and the gorilla.”
-Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man, 2nd edition, New York, A L. Burt Co., 1874, p. 178
“With savages, the weak in body or mind are soon eliminated; and those that survive commonly exhibit a vigorous state of health. We civilised men, on the other hand, do our utmost to check the process of elimination; we build asylums for the imbecile, the maimed, and the sick; we institute poorlaws; and our medical men exert their utmost skill to save the life of every one to the last moment. There is reason to believe that vaccination has preserved thousands, who from a weak constitution would formerly have succumbed to small-pox. Thus the weak members of civilised societies propagate their kind. No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man.”
-Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man, 2nd edition, New York, A L. Burt Co., 1874, p. 171
As we have seen, in his book The Origin of Species Darwin saw the natives of Australia and Negroes as being at the same level as gorillas and claimed that these races would disappear. As for the other races which he saw as “inferior,” he maintained that it was essential to prevent them multiplying and so for these races to be brought to extinction. So the traces of racism and discrimination which we still come across in our time were approved and lent justification by Darwin in this way.
I for one believe that following a religion which propagtes total and complete equality among humans of all kinds as more superior, fair, just, peace giving and harmony establishing than following the athiestic notion of Darwin. Perhaps we can debate this in some other page. we are going off topic here.
8. The world wars weren’t caused by some religious ideology. They were caused by the materialistic philosophy of “survival of fittest”. Almost 80 % of European population was eradicated during the wars. The stray suicide bombings of religious fanatics doesn’t even come close to this figure.
9. The mass salvery and colonization of several African and Asian nations wasn’t caused by any religious ideology. It was caused by materialistic ideologies which openly justify the reign of the powerful and the extermination of the weak. Even the pain and suffering of Palestinian people is less compared to the suffering caused by colonization. While the Palestinians suffer from 60 years or so, the colonies suffered slavery for centuries.
10. the holocaust of Jews that saw the death of 600,000 people wasn’t caused by any religious fanatic. Hitler believed that Jews were an inferior race and so must be eliminated. Google it if you are not sure.
11. The killings of 200,000 people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki wasn’t caused by any religious fanatical ideology.
12. The ethnic cleansing in Sudan that saw the death of 500,000 people and displacement of 2.5 million more wasn’t caused by religion. Power, greed and more power are its causes. No religion professes or justifies killings based on these reasons.
13. Is racism connected to any religion? No! The Indian anthropologist Lalita Vidyarthi explains how Darwin’s theory of evolution led racism to be accepted by social sciences:
“His (Darwin’s) theory of the survival of the fittest was warmly welcomed by the social scientists of the day, and they believed mankind had achieved various levels of evolution culminating in the white man’s civilization. By the second half of the nineteenth century racism was accepted as fact by the vast majority of Western scientists.”
-Lalita Prasad Vidyarthi, Racism, Science and Pseudo-Science, Unesco, France, Vendme, 1983. p. 54
Anyway, what i want to conclude is that religion may be the cause of a few problems which mankind is facing. But the actual cause is the atheistic ideology of Darwin which is far from being scientific. The horrors which this theory has caused to mankind and which it will cause in the future is nothing, literally nothing compared to what religion has caused.
I hope you understand this my friend.
Mr. Theoworkshop has put the evils of atheistic ideologies quite nicely. Certain sections of media do portray religion in a bad way. But except the Israel and the world trade centers incidents I cannot recall any other negative incidents that were caused by religion. No doubt, the many suicide bombings, the recent mumbai attacks, the Glasgow bombings were all heinous deeds that should be condemned at all costs. But none of these incidents, i repeat, none of these incidents caused death tolls of abnormally high figures.
C’mmon, the evils of atheistic ideologies have caused death tolls that are on par with those caused by natural disasters like earthquakes and cyclones.
Mass killings might have been the order of the day during the medieval ages, like the unholy crusades for example. Even then, most wars were fought for land, glory and power either for offense or for defense. Hence, to squarely blame religion for troubles of this world only shows how ignorant people are.
I am a staunch supporter of Palestine. I will not take any neutral stand on this issue. I dont need the deaths of hundreds of palestinian civilans to convince me to support Palestine. It is common sense. Everyone knows Israel didnt even exist on the face of the earth 60 years ago. Everyone knows that Israel was “created” by carving out lands from atleast 5 middle east nations. Everyone knows that this new “israel” wasnt satisfied with its stolen bounty and hence decided to loot more in 1969 i think. It was then that Gaza, west bank etc were looted away by Israel.
Now, knowing all this, why should i stay neutral? why shouldnt i support palestine? will you people who claim to be neutral remain neutral when some foreign nation enters your lands, demolishes your homes, sets up their own new homes and forces foreign people to settle in your country? Will you still remain neutral? Is it wrong to support the people who are wronged in this way? what different is the situation in Palestine than this?
Moderator – Click Here to see some pictorial descriptions of the “noble” and “Humane” deeds of Israel : –
https://prophetrejectors.wordpress.com/category/israeli-killings-of-palestinian-civilians-pics/
I do not believe that religion is the root of all problems no not at all. But in the war between israel and palestine their is no bigger root cause. Religion to me that is good but can be dangerous. I fear that most christians seldom realize that the message of christ which is, piece and love. Is really quite non polarizing. However religion is a control factor in which men can be manipulated and so they have it does not have to be totally relevant to be used. I talk much of religion for this is a religious war. The solution is simple yet it is difficult. Now on your notions of atheistic society. I am no atheist but more a realist i don’t no if their is a god or not. However lets be real atheistic society has never had a seat of power. I disagree with darwins notions other than his theory of evolution. I agree that religion has not been associated with every world problem. I wrote something awhile back about religion with your permission next post with your permission i would like to post it. Also lets get real religion has been a much bigger contributer to predjudice than atheistic society. Also Well wisher let me take you through history The crusades cost the lives of of 100s of thousands of people, the spanish inquisition, the Salem witch trials, Look the catholic church locked galileo away for believing in gravity. I will come up with more but as i told theoworks, I am not claiming religion to be the root of all problems. but it is definatly caused a great deal. One more thing Stop with this nonsense about the evils of atheistic society really i have never heard of any atheist strapping on a bomb and running into a crowd of women and children. Really i think radical religion creates atheists . Their is one occasion where a religious group was oppressed and that group much to some on this blogs dismay would be the Jews. Slaughtered by the millions just for their faith and a mans antisemetism. I do hope their are none on this blog seek to claim that never happened.
this is the moderator mansoor. Thank you very much asdfe and welwisher for sharing your thoughts. I agree with asdfe that religion is the root cause of palestine – Israel mess.
There is another thing that i would like to clarify. In my previous post i was wondering what good is it to the US to back Israel. Well apparently, the christian US has some prophesy that says that Israel would take Jerusalem from the muslims and then Jesus (peace on him) would arrive in his second coming. So there you go folks – a perfect allibi to legalize the state sponsored terrorism and occupation of israel by US.
One more clarification as to the nature of sucide bombers. I believe that suicide bombing is done out of desperation. Sometimes even by recognized organizations. For example hizbollah (i think) of lebanon and LTTE of sri lanka. Whatever it is i am totally against suicide bombings. But lets be rational, even if we put the death tolls of EVERY SUICIDE BOMBINGS so far in the ENTIRE HISTORY OF MANKIND, the figure of death and loss in property will not cross EVEN ONE of the 13 odd separate incidents that i mentioned in my previous posts.
You see, while the suicide bombers aim to make thier voice heard by blowing themselves up, the atheistic agenda aims at wiping out entire races to extinction. Sadly, the sucide bombings get more of media coverage than lets say things happening at places like Darfur etc etc where people are dying as we speak.
I totally agree with you asdfe when you say that radical religion creates atheists. But i do not agree with your sympathy wave at the jews as of now. No doubt, Millions of jews were killed for their faith. But thats a thing of the past. To sympathize with them at these present times knowing fully well the mess that they have created in middle east is foolish. The present Israel has nothing to do whatsoever with what happened during the times of hitler. We have to move on over this and realize the fact that Israel uses this sympathy card to get away with its tyranny.
If at all there is any religion which needs sympathy now, it is Islam. These are the reasons, correct me if i am wrong.
1. The US Went to find Osama in Afghanistan. But how? By waging a war on an entire nation? Thousands of Muslims were killed and over amillion displaced. Was Osama found? No! Is this any different from what happened to the jews? No! so why is it that the world is so crazy that they dont sympathize with the muslims while they still crazily do with jews for something that happened 70-80 years ago?
http://www.unknownnews.net/casualties.html
2. The US went to find weapons of mass destructions in Iraq. Did it find any? No. But how many muslims were killed? 655,000 Muslims were killed and God only knows how many million were injured. Is this any different from what happened to the jews? No! so why is it that the world is so crazy that they dont sympathize with the muslims while they still crazily do with jews for something that happened 70-80 years ago?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html
3. In the 2002, Gujarat riots in India, more than 2000 muslims were killed and over 150,000 displaced. Why? because they were muslims. that’s why. Is this any different from what happened to the jews? No! so why is it that the world is so crazy that they dont sympathize with the muslims while they still crazily do with jews for something that happened 70-80 years ago?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_violence
4. in 1992 Babri masjid riots in india over a thousand muslims were killed so far. The situation has still not been sloved. Why? Because the people were muslims thats why. Is this any different from what happened to the jews? No! so why is it that the world is so crazy that they dont sympathize with the muslims while they still crazily do with jews for something that happened 70-80 years ago?
– http://www.islamicparty.com/question/ans40.htm
5. Approximately 1.5 million Palestinian civilians have died since 1948,including the victims of the ethnic cleansing campaigns in the west in 1948-50 and in the east since 1967. Why? because they are muslims. thats why. If the palestinians were jews and not muslims would the killing continue? no! They die because they are muslims. Is this any different from what happened to the jews? No! so why is it that the world is so crazy that they dont sympathize with the muslims while they still crazily do with jews for something that happened 70-80 years ago?
These are just a few sample tit bits of the worlds biasness towards the muslims. Whether it is in Asia, Europe, America or Australia, muslims are the fav targets for harrasments while the jews remain the fav people to be cuddled and sympathized.
Mr. asdfe, I condemn all forms of oppression. I am a man who is obsessed with things like justice and fairness. I condemn what happened with the jews and i have prayed for the peace of the souls of the jews who died in the holocaust. But it is utter foolishness to sympathize with them now – in these present times, and that too, at the cost of someone else who rightfully deserve the sympathy – the muslims.
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@Guy DeWhitney
I am trashing your comment. If given a chance i would trash you too. Dont you dare visit this blog again.
Your threat has been forwarded to the FBI.
God bless u for it